Transcript 

Welcome to the Hundredfold Business Podcast, where Christian men learn the principles, strategies, and tactics to grow their businesses top line, bottom line, and finish line. I want you to discover the secret to applying Biblical truth to business growth for the greatest kingdom impact. So in the end, you hear from your Heavenly Father, well done.

Welcome to the HundredfoldBusiness Podcast, where Christian men learn how to grow their businesses top line, bottom line, and finish line. And I'm your host, Josh Fonger, founder of 4 Soil Ventures. And today, we have a special guest.

We have Rory Groves. Rory is a technology consultant and founder of multiple software businesses. Several years ago, he moved his family from the city to the country to begin the journey towards a more durable way of life.

Rory and his wife, Becca, now reside in Southern Minnesota, where they farm, raise livestock, host workshops, and homeschool their six children. All right, Rory, welcome to the show. Thank you.

I appreciate you having us on. Yeah, super excited about this. After I read your book, Durable Trades and Family Economy, I just thought this would be a great interview for kind of breaking some paradigms for the business owners who watch this, or maybe they aren't working with their family, never really thought about working with their family.

And I'm hoping that during this discussion today, we can open their eyes to what scripture says and what history says, and it should be a lot of fun. So to get started, Rory, why don't you share with the audience how God has directed your path to get where you are right here? Yeah, I was smiling a little bit because the bio I sent you is slightly outdated because now I'm a former technology consultant, is what I tell folks. But certainly, when I wrote and was writing Durable Trades, that was very much my main source of income.

We've been able to transition out of what I consider to be a fairly isolated, independent style of career, working at a desk and staring at a screen all day to a much more family integrated vocation, which now sees us farming together, hosting events on our farm together. We just recently launched a publishing house, so now we're starting to write books together and publish other people's books that all pertain to family. And trying to focus on strengthening Christian households is really the underlying mission of what we're doing.

So we've got our fingers in a lot of pies right now, but it's actually with much gratitude that I am a former tech consultant and that I was able to find a way to break away from the route that I had been on my whole life, but that I could not involve my family with. So anyway, that's one little glimpse into our journey. We've been here on the farm for, I think it's 14 years this summer.

That was a really big moment for us. I didn't know it when we came, but we moving out to the land and beginning to experience a different pace of life and a different type of work. It was where the life and the work were integrated.

In other words, work wasn't compartmentalized. It wasn't something that I did to earn an income and then got on with my real life, with my family. Work began to be integrated into my family and into my life.

I enjoyed the work and it just was a big contrast. So I would say that to sum it up, and we can go down some of these trails too, but just to sum it up is the context of where we were living. Formerly in a city, I lived in Minneapolis and worked in the city.

I held tech jobs my career, 25 plus years, to moving to a context that was more grounded, literally, and more family integrated really started to open my eyes to a kind of vocation and career that I didn't know I wanted when we first moved out here. But once I saw it, I couldn't stop thinking about it. So what was the moment where you started to, I mean, that's a big shift from the city to the farm life.

So was it something that happened to you that you said, okay, we as a family, you got a big family, that we need to make this kind of shift? What was the awakening? You mean from the city to the country or from the vocationally into family integrated? Both. They happen at different times. Well, no, we didn't have six kids when we moved out here.

Like I said, that was 14 years ago. So we only had two kids at the time. But it was clear that we needed some more room.

And we were either going to have to build out our house where we were, because we didn't have enough space. And we loved it, actually, at the time. It was nothing against that life.

And we loved our neighbors. And there was lots to see and do. We were in a very beautiful part of Minneapolis.

But the thing that I felt really kind of hampered by was, we just didn't have room to do things. Like if we wanted to get animals, we wanted to get chickens. If we wanted to just live a more, I guess I would call it a fuller life, right? Have places for our children to run and grow and build forts in the woods and go sledding downhills and do things like this.

It just felt like it was very constrained in the postage stamp size lot we were in, in South Minneapolis. And so there were the suburbs and have a little bit more space. But you still ran into some of this problem of like, yeah, but I would really like to try farming.

I'd like to try growing. I'd like to be more self-sufficient, less dependent. I was feeling those tremors back.

This is back in like 2008, 2010. So we found this farm in 2012 and it was really, it really fit. Like we had a lot to learn.

Neither my wife nor I had any farming background, any experience. We were both children of the suburbs. So we had a lot to learn, but we loved it.

And that was one of the things that ended up becoming part of our family economy was as we were learning to tap maple trees and make maple syrup, we would host a workshop about it. We'd invite all our friends and just said like, come on over. We've got a farm, come on over and make this farm your farm.

And we can learn together. And we did that with beekeeping workshops. And we learned to butcher chickens then and raise chickens and butcher chickens.

And each step along the way, we just invited others to come along and learn with us. Cause we just, it was all new and novel to us. So that ended up, we didn't know it at the time, but that had ended up becoming one of the main things that we do now.

And it's not, it's shifted since when we originally started. We're not just doing like a chicken butchering and honeybee workshops, but we're actually much more focused on family discipleship, bringing in speakers, holding conferences, but doing it inside of a context of an actual family economy. We love the farm set up because you can actually see how families work together in a farm in a way that a conference center or a hotel, or even a church, you don't get to see the actual embodiment of that family integrated work.

Was there anything or, you know, something about what that made you think, Hey, I really need to be discipling my kids or, you know, integrated in my family, in my work that made you again, make this, this shift from tech job and now parent my kids to this holistic way to do work? Well, I would say, yeah, absolutely. There, there were, it was a transition, but there were also some punctuated moments where I remember one day we were doing something in the garden in the morning and I was with my kids. I mean, let's just say it was planting potatoes.

I can't remember right now, but we were doing something and then and then I needed to get back to my office to really start my day. And I remember having this realization is of sitting alone in my office. I had just left my family, my children doing something very meaningful together in the garden, even though it's just digging in the ground, but something that felt very purposeful.

And I was going to my real job, which is sitting alone, staring at a screen, typing on a keyboard, making software that I didn't really ever get to meet the people that use my software. You know, that's just the nature of the digital life that we live. If you live in software, you hardly, you're so many layers removed from the actual users.

And, and just feeling like I, is there any way where the part where I'm with my family doing stuff on the land could be my real job? Like, is, is that an option? Like, obviously it used to be an option for thousands of years. That's the only way that families would have been able to survive if they were all working together. But it seems like the only way you can survive today is if you're squirreled away in the corner of a room, banging on a laptop.

And, and I just wondered, like, I, I had lost my passion for the tech for the novelty of it, because to me, the novelty was really in the ground. It was in the land, it was with the family. So that became kind of a, a question, a nagging question in my mind that just never went away.

And so that, that contrast is what I would say. When we came to the farm, what, what it did is it introduced a contrast into my life that I never saw when we were in the city. That contrast forced me to reckon with something vocationally that I probably would never have seen.

And that was followed up by, I, I read a book or I heard some language from a pastor in Colorado named Kevin Swanson. He's got a ministry called Generations, and they do fantastic family discipleship and homeschooling type curriculum and things like that. Well, he had a, he had mentioned this, and they had, he had put out a book, and it had one chapter on a thing called the family economy.

And this was all coinciding with my quest to kind of find out, is there another way to work? And so when I, when I heard of this idea of the family centered economy and others have written on it as well, I just grabbed hold of it and never let go because I just said, this is what I'm feeling that is missing from my life. I want to work with my sons, with my daughters, with my wife. I want to be doing something meaningful.

And I feel like work has become this thing that divides us. And if we could figure out a way, you know, for example, like with my son, my oldest son, when, when we were putting up fences, whatever, whether we're pruning apple trees or putting up hog panels, when we're together doing actual work, and it's during those times that I found myself discipling him more than any other time, more than at church, more than around the dinner table, more than in my spare time, for sure. The discipleship came when we were working together.

And it wasn't like I got out a curriculum and disciple. I'm just saying the conversations that ended up being the real life impactful kind of conversations all happened when we were working together. And so to me, work was an opportunity to disciple my family, not just a means to make money and then to try to, you know, find some other way around the edges to discipleship.

Work itself was discipleship. So these were all kind of factors that over a couple of years, now about 10 years ago, we led to me writing this book, Durable Trades, which was singularly focused on two questions. Are there jobs that are not likely to go obsolete in the next couple of years? Because that's being in tech, you're familiar with that.

And secondly, are there jobs that are family centered and that are still available for people who want this kind of work? And the answer to both of those questions is, well, first of all, yes, but they're one in the same because all of the historic professions that have survived to this day are by definition, family centered types of vocations, because only families could do them back in the day. There was no individualized career paths prior to the industrial revolution. So that was essentially that when I wrote Durable Trades kind of about 2018 to 2020, that was to answer the question for my own family.

So then why don't you, for those who have not read it yet, I've read it, it's a great book. And Kevin Swanson's materials are great too, for those who want to check out Generations. Why don't you give us the history? Why don't you give us the history and why are we so fragmented now? And what did it used to be like? I think that's what else it was.

They have no idea what it even used to be like. And my experience of being a business consultant, early on, I got to see a taste of this, but it was because I worked with family owned multi-generational flooring store companies. And so the cousin was the installer, the dad was the CEO, the son was selling the flooring.

Bookkeeping, there was kind of this whole family aspect to a business. And I got to see the dynamics and the richness and the legacy of that. But that's by and large being lost in most companies.

So what's the history? Well, very briefly, just to sum it up is our society went through a very fundamental shift. It's been called the greatest transformation since the domestication of animals. And it was called the industrial revolution.

And essentially what happened is prior to our society becoming a factory produced kind of centralized society, every home, every household was a factory. And they were the places where all production stemmed from. And so, for example, if you take farming families of the 18th century, which is what 90% of the country was in America at that time, these were all enterprises.

These were family businesses. But it wasn't quite as discreet as we think of family business today. It was, their work was their life and their life was their work.

And their co-workers were their family and their neighbors. So you had the stronger community aspects. You had the incredibly strong family dynamics.

You had three, four, five generations, 10 generations of families following in the same career path that they had inherited from their parents. I mean, think about that today. The average person works seven careers in his lifetime is one of the stats that I use in the book.

You can't last hardly more than a couple of years anymore, but these were not just lasting years. These were lasting many, many multiple generations. And so what changed? Because that had been going on for thousands of years.

Well, what changed was really, it was a shift in our mentality toward work, I believe, and our attitudes toward work, where we began to value the production of the quantity, I should say, of production over the relational worth of what makes those things, what makes those products. So as soon as it became a commodified society, which is centralizing into factories, we began to pick off families off the farms, and we began to individualize careers. And so because why would we do that? Is it better? I'll put this question forward.

Does it create stronger, healthier families and communities for everyone in those families and communities to go to individual and differentiated forms of employment? Is that why we do everything? Are we aiming toward strong, healthy relationships in our economy? No, we're aiming towards the mass production. We're trying to get as much quantity, material quantity. That was not the purpose of life prior to 1790, which is when the kickoff to the Industrial Revolution was.

So it was really this pursuit of a materialistic, I would even say hedonistic way of life that upended what used to be known as the family economy, and you could even say the community economy, where people were mostly self-sufficient. They produced most of what they needed at home. They did it together, and they survived together.

Now, they weren't as rich quantitatively as we would necessarily say today, because they didn't need to earn an income because they could produce what they needed at home. And so there was a trade-off there. So if you're okay with relationships being the actual source and meaning for life, and a full life and a rich life, then you may not have the same material abundance that you would have if you separated off and went all in your separate directions, but you'd have in the end a much more satisfying, meaningful life in which your children can inherit something that you've built, and most importantly, in my estimation, you have the better chance of discipling your children and your children joining you in heaven, which to me is always the final end pursuit of what every parent should be involved with.

So what would you say is lost? So for those who are saying, well, you know, they're weighing the trade-offs, like what are the scary things that are going to happen to you if everyone does fracture off into all different ways? Maybe you can just tell us from history, but, and everyone does work their own jobs, and everyone does have their own iPhones, their own personal computer, and their own thing, and they move out to their own city, and why is that bad? Why can't they just get discipled at church and read their Bible? What is the negative consequence? Maybe just personally, family-wise, society-wise, what did you find? Well, I mean, it's just been, you know, pick your metric, is I guess what you would say, and look at one metric from then to now. You could look at suicide rates. They call them despair deaths now.

The second leading cause of death for adolescents aged 10 to 14 is suicide, 10 to 14. And of course, there's the drug addiction, and the prescription drug addiction, whether it's the antidepressants, there's all of these things. So I mean, I would just turn the question around and say, prove it to me that material abundance has delivered a superior way of life.

I would say prove it. Because if we're seeing the rise of therapeutic drugs in every category, and therapies, just to keep people adjusted to the life that they're forced to live, then maybe this life is not what it was promised to be. Maybe there's not this pot of gold at the end of the rainbow that everyone actually wanted. Maybe we can go back and turn some things back to the way we used to live and the way we used to think, and maybe we can find remedies not in synthetic drugs, but maybe we can find remedies in strengthening relationships with our families.

But in order to do that, you're going to have to walk away from certain things, certain, I would say, chains of modernity that require a separation, an autonomy, a division, even between husband and wife. The most sacrosanct relationship that there is, even husbands and wives are no longer yoked up and on the same mission together. And so, you know, I would say starting with the marriages to be focusing on what are we doing that's going to yoke us up in the same direction, not continue to divide us and introduce gaps in our relationship, which has to be a stable, steady relationship if all the children are going to have steady relationships with the parents as well.

So it really all comes back to this question of work is the big divider, and this is the big difference between how we used to live and how we live today. And the results that we have, yes, I will grant you that there's a breakdown in faith. There's a breakdown in civility and society and all of these things.

But the thing that we have not come back to and reckoned with is the way we work today is diametrically opposed to building healthy, thriving relationships across generations. We've lost that. We've given that up.

You know, Jesus said, what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul? Or I'd say to forfeit his children's souls. You know, what is worth it? There has to be something that you say, no, we're not going to go past this line. Our family is going to be a family.

We are going to do whatever sacrifices it takes and trust the Lord that he'll provide in the meantime, if we focus on rebuilding the health of our family. So I love that. I agree with everything and wanted to get a little bit into the details of your book, Durable Trades.

What is a durable trade? What did you find out? Maybe what were some of the and which one of those things are actually practical where people today, I'm sure I guess they're all practical to some degree, could start to walk forward with some of these trades and move into that? Yeah, I hope I'm answering questions that you're asking. I'm trying to think back. The basic premise for Durable Trades is I wanted to find stable vocations that weren't going to go away overnight just because AI happened to release a new version.

And the second thing was how can I, professions which allow me to integrate my family as much as possible, knowing that there's no pure form of anything for very long. And so what I did when I set out, I just kind of set some basic research parameters and I wanted to look at any vocations, first of all, just from the stability factor that were around before the industrial revolution and are still around today. Because I figured if it had lasted that period of time, it would have already gone through the greatest upheavals that you could put them through.

So really a Durable Trade that's in the book that I discuss, it means it's survived roughly 250 years of upheaval of all kinds of modernization, innovation, wars, recessions, pandemics, civil unrest, you name it. It's already survived those and it's still providing a living today. Then I ranked them.

So it wasn't just what happened back then, what happened today, but I also wanted to rank them because again, I was looking for an answer for my own family. This is really matter to me. So I came up with a way to score things based on like how family centered is the business, how much capital is required to start up in that business, how resistant is it to automation? That was a key threat that I was focused on, having come from the tech world.

So I came up with a way to score all of them and then rank them from one to 60, actually 61. There's 61 in the book in total that I found. But here's the interesting thing is that from 1800 forward, which was roughly the cutoff, the trade had to be older than the industrial revolution.

So some folks will reach out and say, how come plumber's not in the book? And I'll say, because there weren't any plumbers in 1790. I'm not saying that what you're working today does not count as a durable trade, but I'm just saying to make it in this book, that was the cutoff. So I came up with that criteria and then I ranked them one to 61 based on these different questions that I was asking and came up with a way to objectively score them and just basically list out what are the options.

Give me some ideas then if I'm going to go this route. I want to have something that's going to be a serious option that I can put the next 20 years of my life towards and actually have a good chance at seeing both success in terms of provision, but then also setting up my children, that they can take this on and move forward and have their own family economies. So with your kids, has that changed the way you do your homeschooling and what career paths you're leading them on? Are they all one of the 61 different options there or are there other ones that you've found that are new that you think actually are better fits now? Some of them absolutely, 100%.

Some of them are like right now my oldest son Ivor is apprenticing as a woodworker and which is one of the top five in the book. He loves the detail oriented type of work that goes into it and I saw that penchant in him from a young age and I steered him that way and found him some mentors and he just delivered his first custom ordered furniture a couple of weeks ago. It was a dining room table for friends of ours and then he's also raising sheep on our property.

We have some lambs going to the market in a couple of weeks and we have customers that he's serving through lambs. Now keep this in mind, he's 15 years old and he's doing all of this already. So this is a really great, the thing about these historical businesses is that they lend themselves, well as I've said at this point already, they lend themselves to families but they lend themselves to children.

I mean you can be 11, 12, 13 years old and quite meaningfully engaged in some of these older types of professions whereas I mean the modern stuff today, this was what I was facing when I was thinking about what am I going to do at the time I was 40 years old and I was writing this book and it's like am I going to really bequeath a software company to my children? No, of course, it's already outdated and am I going to teach them how to code? Well I could but whatever they're going to use is going to be obsolete by the time they enter the workforce. So it's got, that's the challenge with the modern professions is that there's this constant obsolescence but at the same time that takes so many years to train up to be able to fit into one of these specialized careers. But the thing that's great about working with animals is you know my three-year-old can go out and check for eggs but by the time they're six or seven years old, they can take care of all the chickens and guess what? The chickens actually feed the family.

We get eggs from the chickens. So the farm is ideally suited for family enterprise. I've said that before, it's probably one of the best but it's still, even still, it only makes up one trade in my book.

There's lots of other ways that families, if they don't have a farm, they can still be engaging in family-friendly types of careers. So then your ministry, Gather and Grow, that's what you all specialize in, right? It's helping people make that transition to a family economy. What are some challenges you're consistently seeing for those families who say actually I want my work to not be separate but be integrated with my family, integrated with discipleship, integrated with my faith? What kind of challenges do families typically run up against and how do you help them? Great question.

Most typically, the families that we run into, and granted they're already, they're coming to us, so I'm not trying to persuade the masses on this. The masses are going to continue pursuing the things that, in the end, lead to destruction. So I'm only speaking to a very small minority of families out there who feel this kind of pull away from the individualized society that we're in and they're wanting to do something that's generational.

They want to build some kind of legacy that's going to last. Most of the fathers in this situation, the biggest thing they struggle with is how do we replace that income? Because they might be making $80,000, $90,000, $100,000 in a corporate job, and it's very hard to walk away from something, you know, a bird in the hand for two in the bush. And I get that because I walked through the same kind of transition as I shut down my software business and went full-time in family ministry.

So the number one question that men especially struggle with is how do I replace that income? I just don't perceive mowing lawns, you know, or growing raspberries as going to be able to pay the bills or pay the mortgage. And I would say at the outset, amen, you're 100% right. You will not be able to pay the mortgage with raspberries.

The bank won't take raspberries. But what I tell people is to not get so caught up in the financials just yet. The most important aspect of this whole project is to begin focusing on the relationships.

And so don't even consider the profitability of an activity, of a career as the deciding factor. The first thing you should be focused on is what are things that we can do together as a family? Work, vocation, not like go to the movies together, but I mean like what are things we can put our hands to that will create a service or a product either for other people or maybe just growing something for ourselves, but that brings our family together. That's the quotient you want to be measuring.

We want to know what is strengthening the family. Then you begin there. Don't even think about, then just learn.

Spend time making mistakes, learning together, figuring out what is a good fit for your family. By the time you get a little ways into that, you'll begin to see output, products, productivity that does have a marketable opportunity. I can't really answer the question.

There's not a formula for it because every family is going to be different. But one of the things that we do encourage families to do is we call it the Family Gifts Inventory. It's in the back of my second book, The Family Economy, where you just sit down with your family and basically rank out all of the different gifts that you have between the members of that family.

Get the children and mom and dad and get it all brainstormed out. What has God given our family in terms of gifts and interests and education and histories? Begin to identify through those gifts what might be a good fit for your family to pursue in an economic fashion in a family business. Then it's still a period of learning.

You're getting wisdom. You're learning from your mistakes. You're keeping that job until you have a pretty sure bet that you can step down from it.

That's what I would encourage families to do first. Then you'll know when it's time. When you have something that is maybe not quite the same number of birds in your hand that you had before, but you have something that you can pay the bills with, you'll know it.

It's time. Then it just becomes a matter of having courage to take that leap. These ideas sound like they're really great for younger kids.

You're trying to raise them up, teach them, develop them into a certain career path. Any words of encouragement at all for those who maybe have older kids. Their kids are 25, 30, 40, and they're hearing this for the first time.

They're like, wow, maybe I wish I did it differently or maybe what can I do to regain some of that knowledge transfer, discipleship, and integration? What would be your advice for them? Well, just starting out, I'd say if your kids are truly like all the kids are grown and they've moved on and you maybe are even in a grant. If your kids are 40, you're maybe in the grandparent stage now. I would say that there's probably, you're not going to create a family economy with grown and children out of the house.

But what you can do is be a mentor to other families. That would be a key thing that we're lacking in this day and age. See, we didn't used to have the higher levels of education.

We used to have apprenticeship. That was the dominant form of skill transfer for most of human history. Well, we don't have apprentices and we don't have mentors anymore for the most part.

So that's been all replaced by a mass education system. So I would say if you find yourself in a position where you feel a heart for this kind of thing, are there families in your church, for example, or in your community or among your neighbors? Is there anyone that you can help teach from a younger generation that you can pour into and maybe help? That's what happened to us. In the case of my son, Ivor, he took an apprenticeship from a master woodworker that I, this is my oldest son who made the furniture.

I had no ability. I mean, I'm a coder. I hardly had ever used a power tool before I was 35 years old.

I mean, I just was completely ignorant when it came to these kinds of things. But we were very fortunate to find someone else who was willing to take him on as an apprentice and teach him. And because of someone else's friendship to our family, my son now is well on his way to having his own family economy and naming his own price and building, living according to his own desires in that regard that I couldn't provide him.

So that would be number one. Number two is if you do have like some kids still in the house, but maybe some are grown and left, but some are still in the house, absolutely start with what you have and just grow out from there. There's no reason why older adult children cannot become part of an enterprise that mom and dad have started.

It's never too late. And if you're still mom and dad, you've still got each other. You can still do things in your retirement if you want to, and it would still be a family economy for you.

Perfect. Well, very good. So no matter what age you are, it's not too late to start.

Absolutely not. Well, I want to end this podcast with a question I ask everybody, which is what would you say to encourage someone who has not yet fully embraced integrating their faith into their work? Well, what would I say to encourage anyone who has not fully embraced integrating their faith into their work? I mean, I don't know. I think to me, I always start from the family and work outward, and I wouldn't pull any punches.

Jesus said, if you're ashamed of me before men, I'll be ashamed of you before the Father. So I just can't live a duplicitous life and call that a life of faith. It would mean that I haven't yet fully submitted or repented of living by the flesh.

I think what you hit on earlier about compartmentalization is very real, and I think that our society is so careful about bringing religion or anything that is slightly controversial into the business sphere lest you lose customers, but that's just more fear of man. And I mean, in the short run, it might benefit you, but in the long run, it's going to destroy you. I just heard a quote yesterday.

Someone said, you're trying to please a world who crucified the only perfect man. So it's a game you're never going to win no matter how hard you try. So you might as well, if you're in a situation where you're in an environment that's hostile to the things of God, if you don't feel like your witness is penetrating, or if you're not witnessing, it's definitely time to cut your losses and to do something fully for God and fully alive, and then trust Him to provide.

And I think that's but if there's ways that you can still brighten your witness where you're at, I mean, I think that goes along with calling yourself a Christian. There's really no other option. Perfect.

Well, thanks, Roy, for sharing your wisdom on the show today. This has been such an important message, hopefully. It's a paradigm shift for those listening, and hopefully that guides them into how they disciple their kids in the future.

So we're going to be able to find more information about you and your books and your nonprofit. Yeah, so if they want to come out to gatherandgrow.us, we post all of our events there. We have books for sale.

We have a newsletter that we've been doing now. We're in our 10th year of doing this family newsletter, another little experiment of something that was not a profit-making pursuit, but it actually turned into opening doors for us. But we started doing a family newsletter 10 years ago, talking about our farming experiences and what we're learning out here.

And that's been amazing. And so we have a newsletter. It goes out for free.

It's a print. Send it to you in the mail. You can sign up for that and kind of keep in touch with us that way.

Or, you know, just reach out if this resonates with you at all. We pray for families regularly. We'd love to pray for you all to gatherandgrow.us. All right.

Perfect. Thanks, Rory. We'll stay tuned, everybody.

For the next episode, we'll be showcasing how to grow your hundredfold business, one that glorifies God as it grows, by having another expert like Rory on or sharing with you some passages from the Bible. Again, stay tuned for the next episode. And if you need help with your business specifically, you can always go directly to 4thsoilventures.com and you can find my contact information there.

Again, Rory, thanks for being on the show. Thanks again, everybody, for tuning in. And until next time, grace be with you, brothers.