Transcript 

Welcome to the Hundredfold Business Podcast, where Christian men learn the principles, strategies, and tactics to grow their businesses, top line, bottom line, and finish line. I want you to discover the secret to applying biblical truth to business growth for the greatest kingdom impact, so in the end you hear from your Heavenly Father, well done. Welcome to the 100-Fold Business Podcast, where Christian men learn how to grow their businesses, top line, bottom line, and finish line, and I'm Josh Fonger, founder of Fourth Soil Ventures, and today we have a special guest.

We have Dr. Chris Harper. Chris, also known as Harp, is a speaker, a writer, a disciple maker, and he's serving as the CEO of Better Man. They're equipping more than a thousand churches and 100,000 men.

Better Man is unleashing biblical masculinity across the globe. Chris is passionate about biblical manhood and often speaks on topics such as man's identity in Christ and the importance of being a gospel-centered husband and father. All right, Chris, or Harp, welcome to the show.

Man, Josh, so excited to be here and thankful that you'd have me on, man. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to this. During the opening time here, we were talking about how I'd recently took my 20-year-old son through the Better Man program, had a great experience, and he's 20, so a couple of years I'll be taking my 17-year-old through the program and then my 15-year-old through the program, but what I loved about it is this gave a really clear definition of manhood, and I think that for the men listening to this podcast, it's essential for them to get that foundation and then how important it is to actually take that foundation and apply it to different areas, and one of those core areas in Better Man is our work, and so that's one of the focus areas of today, but to get started, Harp, what would you say, if I answer the question, how has God directed your path to here? So how'd you end up here? How'd you end up as the CEO of Better Man? Yeah, it's such a good question, and thanks for asking that.

I was in the marketplace, so spent a lot of time in academia early on, then went into the marketplace, and then I became a pastor. I was a pastor and a church planter for about 12 years and came to the realization that I don't think I was called to be a pastor, but I knew I was called to be in the ministry. I wanted to give my life for Jesus in a vocational way, and so I started looking around the landscape and came to the realization, because again, I'm a marketplace guy, so ROI, return on investment, is big for me.

I began to ask, man, what's the greatest return on investment? What's the greatest kingdom return on investment? I think that's going after men. When you win the hearts of a man, when you win the heart of a man, everything changes. Everything gets better.

Men are the high tide that raises all ships, so for about 10 years now, I've been going after men. Okay, perfect. So then that's been your focus, so what is the focus of Better Man, or what is kind of the core thesis of that for those who've never heard of it? Yeah, so Better Man exists because men's ministry or ministry to men is really lacking today, so there's 360,000 churches in North America.

Eighty percent have a functioning women's ministry. Less than ten percent have a men's ministry. What we did five, six years ago is we created a two-year kind of turnkey men's ministry that any church can adapt, and not only can it be adapted in churches, but it can be adapted in the marketplace.

We have a lot of Better Man groups in prisons, on college campuses, on military bases. Anywhere there's large concentrations of men, and we do two things. I tell churches and men all the time, it's not deep discipleship, but what it is, it's an on-ramp.

We give every man the two things that he needs. We give them clarity around their design. We have a saying at Better Man, you can't become what you can't define.

You can't be a good man, God's man, if you don't know what that means, so we offer a super simple, very biblical, theologically accurate definition of what it means to be God's man, and then we show men like-hearted community, so Better Man is best ran with the community of other brothers. So we give men two things, clarity and community, and that starts them on their journey, and we've been excited to see what God's doing with it. That bio you read is actually about three, four years old.

Just last month, we broke 9,000 churches, and we've served about two million men over the last three years. It's been incredible to see God just take it and run with it. Well, there's a huge, huge need.

My wife and I were going for a hike today, and we're just talking about the need. I mentioned this interview, and just how essential it is to capture the heart of men, to teach men. They need to be trained, taught, reviewed, correct.

They need to be taught because if we don't teach them, no one will, because certainly the culture is not given that definition. So what are some of the fundamental aspects of manhood, and what are the core aspects that you all focus in on? Yeah, so good. So one of the things I teach is when a thing's not rightly understood, the abuse of that thing is inevitable, and that doesn't matter if it's marriage, family, femininity, masculinity, the church.

When the form and function of a thing isn't rightly understood, that thing will be abused, and we've been seeing that with manhood. So we have these four tenets. They're a part of—we say this is what a real man, God's man, does.

This is what he is, and we alliterate it because we're all secretly Baptist. I tell people that all the time, but we call it the four W's. A real man courageously follows God's word.

A real man, he loves and he honors and he protects God's woman. A real man excels at the work God gives him, and it's why I'm excited to be on the show today. When I wrote that Defined series on work, I thought it was going to be my least favorite.

It actually became my favorite. I really fell in love with it. And then lastly, a real man betters God's world, and he does that through his children, through his church, and through his community.

So word, woman, work, world, and when you put those together, you have the definition. Yeah, that's great, and so I'm going to just pause and say anyone who's not gone through the program, I highly recommend checking it out. Do it in community.

It'll be life-transforming, and for this time, just because there'll be limited time, we're going to be focusing on the work aspect, which I think that most churches, they have—well, not most, but a lot of churches have, you know, couples ministry, marriage ministry. Some of them have some ministries specifically about how to parent your kids, and most of them focusing on knowing God's word, but very few, I can't say many, that are focusing on how to actually excel in God's work, how to actually take God's word and apply it to our work. And so let's start with that.

So how does the Bible define work, and what is the importance for a man in his work? Yeah, that's such a good question, man, and if you think about church history, one of the most pivotal times in the church was the Reformation. So 1517, Martin Luther, then you had John Calvin and those guys that followed, and a lot of people think the Reformation was solely about Scripture. It was all about, you know, the five solas, and we've got to return back to the word, etc., and that's true.

It was very much about that, but there was also another principle of the Reformation that Luther was really passionate about, and that was about this idea of work, because in the 16th century, the church had really created this dichotomy of sacred work and secular work, and if you were not doing sacred work, i.e., if you weren't a priest, if you weren't a monk, if you weren't a pastor, if you weren't a nun, something of that nature, a missionary, then the work you were doing was not seen as holy. It was seen as secular, and so Luther actually tried to tear down that sacred- you know, any father changing the soil diaper of his son in the name of Jesus is doing a holy work. You know, we don't work as if we're working unto man.

We work as if we're working unto God, and so the big principle around better man and a real man excels at his work is we teach that all good work, and when I say good, right, like all good, legal, edifying, holy work, man, it's a holy calling. It's sacred, and we really try to help men see that, you know. Yeah, go ahead, Josh.

I think that's a great starting point, so how does the biblical definition of work compare to the world's definition of work, or I mean, how do you- I mean, when you're taking people to the better man program, what definitions do they usually come with, and what do you want them to end with? Yeah, so most people see work as something they do to make a living. Most people see work- unfortunately, a lot of men see work as a burden, right? You read a lot of studies today, and men do not find- they would not say their work is life-giving, which is unfortunate, because the statistics tell us that we're going to spend about two-thirds of our life at work, and if we're going to spend this much time at work, we need to see it in a way that it gives life and not takes away from life. You know, work is not a burden.

Work is not a curse. As a matter of fact, a lot of people read Genesis 3 wrong. You know, God gave Adam work long before the garden was ever cursed.

Work existed before the fall. Work was always a good thing. So, starting there, helping men see that work is holy, and then second, like, work is good.

Yes, it can be draining at times, and yes, it can be hard, but you're going to spend 60% of your life in work, so you need to see it as something that's good and something that should give life and give meaning and give purpose. So, for the, you know, and I've spent a lot of my years, previous years, people motivated to work less, to make more. I'm a business consultant, right, so that, and they think that they're going to find satisfaction if they just work less, and maybe more, they end up that doesn't actually work that way.

So, how do you help the business owners listening to this find more meaning in their work, because maybe they are stressed out by their work, maybe they feel burdened by their work, maybe their biggest goals in work is to not work as much. How do they flip that switch? Like, do they, what's the way to do that, the catalyst? Yeah, so I'll start with a few principles, right? So, I help men see that all work is sacred to God. You know, all work is a service for God.

All work deserves my best as a man, and the reminder that all work done in faith will be rewarded by God. So, that's a great motivation. Not only is a paycheck and dividends and bonuses, not only is that a really good motivation, I'm motivated by those things.

The bigger motivation is that all work done in faith, like that's going to be rewarded by God, and I know what my employer can reward me with. Imagine what the God of the universe is going to reward us with. I mean, that's incredible.

So, to help men kind of find meaning and purpose in their work, you know, I would say a few things, right? First, don't just work, but like really seek to master your craft. I love Proverbs 22, 29, right? Do you see a man skilled in his work, he will stand before kings, is what the Bible says. So, mediocrity and taking shortcuts and trying to shortchange, all those things, like that's a form of laziness, right? It's not excellent, right? It's not reverent.

So, I encourage men, you know, work like a craftsman, become the man who's excellent at what he does, whether that's doing someone's taxes, whether you're a dentist, you know, whether you're a firefighter, whatever it does, be great at it. God is glorified when we reflect His excellency in ordinary things, and more times than not, our work is ordinary, but that's okay. It doesn't mean it's not purposeful and it doesn't mean it's not good.

So, first, I tell men, man, just don't work, man, be a master of your craft. Secondly, I tell men, be trustworthy and be responsive. Be a trustworthy employee or an employer, right? Be somebody that responds.

Be a guy on the team that owns the losses and gives away the wins. Reflect the goodness and the kindness of Christ with your co-laborers. Again, you're not going to spend the majority of your time at home, you're not going to spend the majority of your time in church, you're going to spend the majority of your time in the marketplace.

Your greatest ministry, right? I had a guy tell me one time, he said, Chris, I wish I could be more like you and do what you do. You know, you write, you speak, you travel all over and talk about Jesus. I just want to do that.

I love Jesus too, and I want to do that. And I said, well, what do you do? And he said, I'm an HVAC guy. I'm an HVAC repairman.

I said, man, that's great. I said, how long have you been doing that? He said, 20 years. I said, how many homes have you been in? And he said, I've been in 18,000 homes.

I said, brother, you have more influence than any megachurch pastor I've ever met. I said, could you imagine taking the gospel, taking your witness into 18,000 homes? I said, I'll never be in 18,000 homes, right? And Josh, when I shared that with him, he started to tear up. He said, I've never looked at my work like that.

I've always seen my work as ordinary. And I said, well, man, just because something's ordinary doesn't mean it's not beautiful. It doesn't mean it's not impactful.

So be trustworthy, be responsive. And then lastly, I tell men, be a builder of others. The workplace can be toxic.

It can be cynical. It can be divisive. So be the man that lifts other people up.

Be a Barnabas, be encouraging, speak life, pray for your coworkers, man, refuse to gossip, right? Do those things, like keep your word, be a man of integrity. And if you can do those things, you'll start to find some deep meaning and purpose. You'll start to find your work very, very rewarding.

Yeah, no, I think that's great. And those essential principles that you reminded me of a client I have right now who is in the plumbing industry and same kind of thing. All the different homes he's in, all he gets to meet, pray for, it's just an amazing opportunity.

Which again, leads me to ask my next question. So how does a Christian man working in these environments, how can they look or feel or seem different than someone who's not a believer? Like, what are the key different differentiators? Because certainly being honest, being ethical, showing up, being diligent are principles that people who are not Christian use and are effective at work. So what's the difference or what's the, I guess the Christian trump card? Yeah.

That's really good. I would say the trump card is sacrifice. So, you know, I'm going to be giving a new definition of manhood.

We're not doing away with the four W's or anything like that. Those principles are good and true and timeless. But something that we'll be talking about and releasing next year, we're actually refreshing the core curriculum, the original Better Man curriculum.

We're introducing core 2.0 next May. And in that, I talk about manhood as the joyful pursuit of sacrificial responsibility. It's the joyful pursuit, right? The Bible says that King Jesus endured the cross for the joy set before him.

He joyfully endured the cross. He did that sacrificially. It was his responsibility.

I think one of the biggest distinguishers between unsaved people in the marketplace versus saved people in the marketplace is, man, we don't grumble. We don't complain. We joyfully pursue sacrificial responsibility.

We practice Philippians 2.3. We consider others as more important than ourselves. So when the guy in the cubicle next to us gets the promotion we wanted, we're genuinely happy for him. You know, when your business partner gets a new deal or makes more money, that's okay.

You genuinely want better and what's best for them. But we practice this idea of laying down our lives for others. And then we also practice the idea of when things are hard, man, we're the first to step up.

Or when things don't go well on the team, maybe we're the first to assume some responsibility and say, hey, guys, some of that was on me, and I want to step up and own that. In a way, it's leadership. It's stepping into those places and moments that maybe secular people are afraid of or don't want to step into.

But because of that sacrificial love that Jesus tells us to walk with and talk with, we're willing to step into those places. Yeah. I took some notes there.

Joy, sacrifice, responsibility. That's great. And this might tie into one of the sections of your core curriculum, which is what is gospel-driven work and man's identity and how that can be tied into their work.

Maybe too much or too little. And maybe you can speak to that a little bit because I know that's a tension. Yeah, it is.

On the negative side, I would say from a gospel perspective, your work cannot save you. And your work cannot form your identity. Long before you're a plumber or long before you're a Christian plumber, you're actually a son of the Most High King.

That's where you derive your identity from. I see so many men that derive their identity from what they do instead of who they are. And work in that way becomes like a gospel for them.

It's a saving agent for them. It's one of the reasons that men will often run to work and run from home. A lot of times, men don't know how to win in home.

A lot of times, men don't know how to win in the church. They know how to win in the marketplace. So you'll see them run from the church and run from home, and they'll run to the marketplace.

Because at least there, I know how to win. At least there, I know how to, in a way, be saved. So on the negative side, I would remind men that your work cannot save you, and your work is not who you are.

Jesus Christ and Jesus alone saves, and it's God who gives us our identity. But it's from that identity that we then serve in our vocations, that we then serve in our callings. We take these gifts, and we take these unique traits that God has given all of us.

I see so many speakers and these kind of self-help gurus, and they talk about, this guy's got the secret sauce, and you need to go find his sauce. I don't believe that's true. I believe God's given every one of us a secret sauce, and He's given Josh a little bit different sauce than He's given Chris.

The trick is to find your secret sauce, to discover how the Lord has uniquely made you and wired you, and then go live in that sauce, work in that sauce. I tell men all the time, I spend 80% of the time working in my sauce. 20% of the time, I have to get out of it, and that's fine, because there's things I have to do.

There's things that I need to do for the success of the company or whatever. But if I spend too much time outside of my sauce, man, you don't want to be around me. I start to burn out, and I start to be belabored, and it's just not a great thing.

So, I really try to discover how God's uniquely wired me, and then offer that back to Him. Offer that to my employee, offer that to my co-workers, and then offer that back to God. Well, you know, Dove, telling what you just said, the offering back, a lot of guys I'm working with are obviously business owners.

They're leaders, organizationally, so they have to lead, whether they want to or not. How can they take this thought of the importance and the meaning of their work, and how do they train their team, or bring that idea down to their staff, who maybe is feeling burned out, or like their work doesn't matter, or is apathetic about their work, or unambitious. How do they then, yeah, teach those underneath them? Yeah, you know, first, I would practice some self-reflection.

Is there something I'm doing as a business owner? Is there something I'm doing as a CEO? Is there something I'm doing as a leader, that's making members of my team feel like their work doesn't matter? You know, one of the greatest sins, Josh, that we don't talk about, is the sin of partiality. Treating people differently based upon their position. Treating people differently based upon what they do.

So, does the janitor at your company feel as seen and as heard as the CFO? If you want the janitor to take pride in what he does, or she does, you need to make sure they're seen, and you need to make sure they're heard. Before, I tell leaders all the time, before we're human doings, we're human beings, and we need to be acknowledged as human beings. And we have value, and we have worth, and we have dignity, right? And it's not that I'm going to give you dignity, or I'm going to bestow dignity upon you.

No, I'm going to recognize the dignity that's already there, that God has given you. And so, the first thing I would ask, man, as a leader, do the people on your team at all levels, upper management, middle management, and lower management, do they feel seen? Do they feel heard? Do they feel valued? Because if they do, I can almost guarantee, man, they're going to bring their work to another level, because they feel like they're a valuable part of the entity, of the team. Do you give them a seat at the table? Is their voice heard? I've got a friend who, so I live in the DFW area, I've got a friend who works for the Dallas Mavericks, and I won't, it doesn't matter what he does, but he's worked there for 20 years.

And he told me a story, he said, Mark Cuban sold the Dallas Mavericks a couple of years ago for, I don't know, $3.2 billion. It was something insane. But what Mark Cuban did, is he brought every employee in, and depending on how long you've worked there, he gave a set amount of money, times multiple of the years that you've been there.

So, whether you were a janitor, whether you were a concession worker, whether you were an account executive, it didn't matter, you got a lump sum of money times the years that you were working there. There were janitors that worked at the American airline centers, that worked for the Dallas Mavericks for the last 20, 30 years, that their life changed instantly, because of what Mark Cuban did for them. And Mark Cuban's not even a believer.

This is a pagan dude, practicing honoring people. There was no partiality in what he did. It was absolutely incredible.

And my friend, to this day, he still talks about that, how moving that was, to see Mark Cuban do that. And so, that's the first thing that comes to mind, Josh, when you ask, as leaders, man, what can we do within our companies to promote value and to get people to excel? I would say, first and foremost, man, kill any partiality in your company. Yeah, that's a great story.

Great example. I'm going to change gears, because this is something that I deal with personally, and I'm hoping you can help me out with this. So, my company is Fourth Soil Ventures, and obviously, the parable of the four soils, and the third soil is the one where the cares, riches, and pleasures of this world, they choke out the seed, the weeds there, the thorns.

But then the fourth soil is the one that multiplies, the hundred-fold increase. And oftentimes, I'm dealing with people who are stuck in, let's just say, not to misuse the analogy, but they're stuck in third soil, as in they have a business, they go to church on Sunday, but the cares, riches, the pleasures of this world have captivated them. And so, they have ambition, but they just don't realize it's selfish ambition.

The ambition is, I want to grow, I want to scale, I want to multiply for myself. And I'll give God some leftovers, but that's the goal. And I'm trying to wake them up and say, hey, there's even a better, even a bigger ambition.

Godly ambition is the fourth soil. You're going to have actually a bigger, broader impact here and now and for eternity. So, how do you get, how do you wake people up to help them see in their business that they're actually shooting the wrong target and they have the wrong ambition? Any advice there? Man, that's such a good question.

And that's, I don't fully agree with him, but Dietrich Bonhoeffer once said that ambition and initiative are two roads that lead to hell. Okay. And that every godly man has to guard his heart against ambition and initiative.

Now, he took it to the extreme and basically said ambition and initiative always lead that way. I love what you said, Josh. I think there is a holy ambition.

I think there is such thing as holy initiative. I mean, I really do. But that's born, you know, you want to talk about soils.

Holy ambition and holy initiative are born in the soil of humility. And if you lack humility, or if you struggle with humility, it is going to be hard, if not impossible for you to take your ambitions and turn them towards the kingdom, or to take your initiative and turn it towards God. So, I would first and foremost say that anybody struggling in that third soil, right, man, you have to do a regular heart check.

You have to grow in humility. You have to do things. Mother Teresa had, I think she called them 10 principles of humility.

It was 10 things that she practiced all the time that helped foster humility in her heart. You know, I would adopt something like that because you have to stay humble. Otherwise, ambition and initiative will run unchecked, and nobody drifts towards godliness.

Nobody naturally gravitates towards holiness. We always drift and naturally gravitate towards selfishness. So, I would do everything in my power to fight that, and it begins with humility.

Yeah, I love that. So, how do you grow this honest and good heart, this fourth soil heart? It starts with humility, and now that's perfect. Well, Chris, I know we could talk all day about this topic, but I'd love to end all of my podcast episodes with a question about an encouragement, really, for those listening.

So, for those Christian men who are business owners who are listening to this, what would you say to encourage them if they have not fully embraced integrating their Christian faith into their work? You know, they kind of see them separate. They keep it quiet. No one really knows they're a Christian, but they do, and they're, you know, a leader in the marketplace.

What encouragement would you give them? Yeah, I share with people all the time, especially people who do want to be impactful for the kingdom. There are two great ministries that almost every man has, and it's probably the ministries that you're going to either pull people to Jesus or push people away from Jesus by how you exercise these ministries. Most men don't get invited to podcasts.

Most men aren't going to preach to 10,000 people. Most men don't have a blog that's read by hundreds of thousands of people. That doesn't make you any less than, and it certainly doesn't make the guy that does those things any better.

But the two ministries that most of us typically have is marriage and then our vocations, what we do with our work. So marriage, I always call it, I alliterate everything, so I call it marriage and money, but those are the two platforms that people are going to be able to see Jesus in us. So we'll put marriage aside, even though, man, how you love and honor your wife, people will see Jesus in that maybe more than anything else.

But then with your vocation, man, what you do in the marketplace, how you carry yourself, the type of character and integrity you bring to the table, your generosity. Let's say you do hit a lick, man, and you start to make money. How do you bless people with that? How do you bless others with that? How do you bless your church? How do you bless the kingdom, right? People are going to watch what you do with your dividends, what you do with your profits.

So I would just encourage business leaders, these principles that you're learning in God's word, deep dive into those. What did God mean when he said, don't build bigger barns? And how does that relate to my business? When the widow gave the mite, when she gave of all she had, what does that mean for me and my $10 million business? When my business is struggling and times get lean, what does it mean that God clothe the flowers of the field and feed the birds of the air? How much more will he do for me that he loves? What do those principles and those truths mean in context of my work? And then pray, God, give me the courage and give me the strength to live those out in front of you and in front of others. And I think if you do that, you'll live a God-pleasing, God-glorifying life, both in and out of your work.

Yeah, great. I love that. Thank you, Chris, for doing that.

And thanks, Chris, so much for sharing your wisdom today. This has been a really important message. I hope those listening to this will listen again, like I'm going to do, and take notes and apply what Harper's talking about.

And so, Harper, where can they go to find out more information about you and Better Man? Where are the resources? Yeah, pretty simple. Betterman.com. Everything basically lives there. We try to keep everything frictionless.

So if you just go to www.betterman.com, you can gain access to just about anything. Perfect. Great.

All right. Well, everybody, definitely go there. Go to betterman.com. Get those resources.

I think a number of them are free. Support them there. Bring that to your church.

Bring that to your community. And stay tuned for the next episode on the Hundredfold Business Podcast, where we'll be talking with another expert like Chris, or I'll be sharing another study that I'm doing on the Bible. I think the next one's going to be all about sales, how you can grow your sales biblically.

And if you need help with your business as a business coach, you can always reach out to me directly at 4thsoilventures.com. Again, Chris, thanks for being on the show. And thanks everybody for tuning in. Until next time, grace be with you, brothers.