Transcript

Welcome to the Hundredfold Business Podcast, where Christian men learn the principles, strategies, and tactics to grow their businesses, top line, bottom line, and finish line. I want you to discover the secret to applying Biblical truth to business growth for the greatest kingdom impact. So in the end, you hear from your Heavenly Father, well done.

Welcome to the Hundredfold Business Podcast, where Christian men learn how to grow with their top line, their bottom line, and their finish line. And I'm your host, Josh Fonger, founder of Forso Ventures. And today we have a special guest.

We have David Wilson. And David is the founder of The Reversal Clinic, which helps families grow through the largest microsurgical vasectomy reversal practice in the United States. And very excited, David, to have you on the show.

Thank you, Josh. Good to be with you. Very good, all right.

Well, David and I have some history together, and I'm sure we're gonna go through some of that as we talk today. But the main reason why I have him on the show today is David is a Christian, and he's also a surgeon, and a business owner, and he has integrated his faith into his practice. And I'm hoping to really extract some of the amazing stories from David's life.

You all can benefit today as I ask him the questions. All right, David, so let's get started. What has your journey been like? How has God directed your path to get you where you are today? Well, I mean, what comes to mind in this setting is the vasectomy reversal practice, which is not where I started in medicine.

I started as in general surgery, and it was doing gallbladders, hernias, appendix, that sort of thing. And the Lord redirected me through a series of events and prayer exercises. I would say the precipitant of a big part of it was me seeing in two different places within about 10 days that there were 4,000 abortions in the U.S. a day.

This was back in 2004, two different sources. And I'd actually had thought about the same thing a few months prior. And that was, you know, I don't think those women are paying for those.

I think the people I'm doing business with are paying for those. I was an employee. I certainly wasn't doing abortions, but as an independent general surgeon, I had provider contracts with different government agencies, insurance companies, to accept their fee schedules.

Basically, it was, in my view, a yoking through this contract agreement. And so at one point I said, well, Lord, you show me what to do and I'll do it. And for me and my conscience, he did.

He showed me what I should do. I felt, I wrote all these companies and agencies and I said, do you pay for life of abortions? And all of them said yes. So again, for me and my conscience, good men have different thoughts about it or convictions about it, but I felt like I was basically joining in with the evil of murdering the children.

There was a sense of what am I money? Because the people that were paying me for my services were also paying for the abortions. So I decided to drop all those contracts. And I knew that God who made everything from nothing in six days could keep a little doctor's office open if he wanted to, but I also knew for some reason he wanted to shut it down.

He had a prime opportunity. That's what happened. Four months after I made that decision, I had to shut my door.

So after 10 years of practice, I was a surgeon on the street. So I cried out to God and asking for direction and guidance and through impressions and prayers and confirmations of circumstances and confirmations of scriptures, he led me to one little procedure. And that was the beginning of the reversal clinic, basically.

I didn't know what was gonna happen at the beginning, but I had for years, used practice as a platform for being a witness and had seen some saved, but it was just a new way to serve the Lord. And through many, many confirmations, it was very obvious that this is what his plan was for me. As I really decided to do what he showed me, whatever he, I didn't know if I was gonna be pumping gas or what, but I knew I needed to set the practice down and I was just very, very open to whatever he wanted for me.

And as I was just looking to him, he showed me very clearly. Wow, that's an amazing story. And I think just to draw the amount of courage and faith that it takes, because a lot of school to become a surgeon, a lot of work and getting to the point where, hey, everyone who's feeding my family, so to speak, all those different companies who were paying you through insurance to get the work done, you had the conviction, you got it confirmed through prayer, which I do wanna dig into those confirmations.

You were like, well, if this is what the Lord wants, then I'm willing to do it. And it cost you, right? That was a big, it cost you, obviously it cost you your whole career at the time. What was the, how did you get those confirmations? I think for those who have not been bold in prayer, they've not waited on the Lord in that way.

What was that like for someone who's on the fence about making some big decisions like that? Well, you can see confirmations throughout the scriptures, right? I mean, Abraham's having believing faith, I mean, God shows him the stars and talks about the stars and the sand and his descendants, and he believed him and he was justified through that, but then he says, how shall I know these things? And God did a miracle to show him. And so many, many other confirmations in the scriptures, but I hadn't really known anyone personally to discuss these kinds of confirmations, but I did have a mentor over the years through the writings, and that was George Mueller. Mueller would write about these things, and Mueller would say 90% of God's guidance personally is to get my heart and mind in a place where I'll do what he wants me to do.

That's the big thing. Once, then Mueller would say, once I come to that point, I would seek a direction in prayer, but then he would seek confirmation through scriptures and circumstances. And then he would say after two or three more petitions, if I had a piece about it, I would act.

And he said, in retrospect, I never made a decision that wasn't of the Lord, which he was a great man of faith. And in my life, I can't, it's been 20 years, I can't remember the specific confirmations in terms of circumstances at the beginning of the decision-making. I can share confirmations after I made the decision.

I don't know if that would be helpful or not, but one of them was at the very beginning of the practice, I was still getting a few checks from a temporary assignment I had. And I determined to do the first few patients for a low fee because I knew it would take me longer. But there was a point where those, those low fees had to stop because I had to feed my family.

And my first full paying patient, at the time I was doing a preoperative phone call with everyone, they asked me over the phone, would you take a memorial fund check? Our daughter died in a drowning. And I said, yeah, I would take a memorial fund check, that's fine. They come to the clinic and they hand me this check and the check is written out by the church I grew up in, in Wichita, Kansas, which is a four hour drive away.

The first time I ever gave the Lord out of my own money was in that church. And here I am the first full paying patient, he's handed me a check from that church. And I look at it, I look at that man, I said, I bet you know, the gal says, I think we're on the right place.

And the man's, and I tell the man, I think you, you probably know my uncle Charlie, he says, yeah, he's my Sunday school teacher. So many, many things happened in, that's one of the sort of sticks out after 20 years, but things were happening like that at the very beginning stages of the decision making process. Scripture confirmations, I can't go into detail.

I mean, I could go to detail in some recently, but Mueller did have an example I could share that in his autobiography, he's best known for his amazing orphanage work. And one day he read a little verse in the Psalms and says, open your mouth wide and I will fill it. And when he read that verse, he knew he should start the orphanage work because he had assurance that as he asked God for the children's need, he would provide.

And so similarly in my life, God has used scriptures that would be somewhat out of context, but the Holy Spirit would apply that scripture to the decision. In my life, I usually try to get it to a yes, no, or between two choices. And you can see David dividing up complex situations, usually military conundrums.

He would ask one yes, no, and then he would ask us another yes, no, and another yes, no. So some situations we have to be careful about how we ask the question of what answers we're getting, but confirmation of the Holy Spirit can use the scripture spoken or brought to mind or read to apply that scripture to the decision to give confirmation. Likewise, circumstances can also be used by the Holy Spirit and apply that circumstance to the decision and bring confirmation.

Usually in my life in big decisions, I'll do a three-day juice fast and I'll ask God for confirmation on each of the three days, spiritual, biblical, and circumstantial. And if I don't see those little miracles, I don't act. I can't remember the details of that process early on.

I can tell you that when it became clear to me that I should drop the contracts, my thumb was hurting still from a dislocation of my thumb. I won't go into the details about, but that thumb dislocation I was certain was the Lord's discipline on me. I won't go through the details.

And so my thumb was still sore from that discipline. And when God showed me I should stop the contracts, my thumb was sore and I said, yes, Lord. So he made it very easy to take that step that was in some ways kind of drastic.

Wow, well, I mean, that's a great, it was a great encouragement for anyone listening to hear that, you know, that's one of my essentials, elevate your mind, is like being a Christian is not just following a bunch of principles and rules. You're actually interacting with the living God, the other verse who wrote us a book, the Bible. And as you're applying biblical wisdom, you have to do it through prayer.

There's a spiritual, you're a great example. And obviously George Mueller is a great example as well, that we're supposed to share those testimonies, share those stories of God acting to encourage other brothers as they're trying to live out their faith so they can know about those who've walked before what their relationship with God was like. So I think, and that's why I'm so excited to hear more and more of your stories.

We see, I mean, in scriptures, God spoke to man and he's the same God today. And so am I open to having that same type of experience? I mean, he's the same. Well, exactly.

Yeah, and I think that's where people can, you know, myself included, can put God a box and say, well, here's what the principles or the Proverbs or here's what, here's the lanes to stay in. But you can see that, you know, God is calling people to a relationship and he's calling you to, in your case, be bold, take a risk. Anybody who could say, well, David, you've spent this many years getting your degree, you have your thing, just be kind, be loving, work here.

It'll actually, this brings me to a question. How, you know, how should, you know, in your opinion, a Christian who's working in a certain environment, how do they know when they need to try to reform the place that they're working in a, I don't know, I guess a school system or a certain industry where their beliefs don't necessarily fit the beliefs that of everyone else who's working in their industry? And how do they know when they just need to make a wholesale shift like you did and just say, you know what, my conscience has decided this, I need to make a shift. Like how can someone weigh those decisions? Well, I can't really personally identify because one of the main reasons I went into medicine was because I felt in medicine, I couldn't be an independent decision maker.

So I always approached it from that point of view. But if a believer is growing in his faith and is maturing and he senses his workplace environment may be inhibiting him or constraining him from honoring the Lord, it's just a matter of putting it before the Lord, seeking him out, asking him, Lord, do you want me to continue or should I make, seek a change? And if you are sincere and the scripture says in all your ways acknowledge him, he'll direct your paths. So if you can do a moral inventory of your life, if you can say, God, is there some way I'm offending you or man, I haven't dealt with it.

And the answer is no, then you can approach God and he'll direct your path. And just get a little stubborn with him, do some fasting and he'll show you whether you should make a change or not. And then that point is, then the next question is what is the change? But that would be my counsel if someone in that situation is to ask the Lord and he'll show you if you are living pleasing to him.

I've gotten stubborn with the Lord a few times in my life about that verse and if we're not following the Lord, if there's some area of our life we're hanging on to, we've got some hidden sin and no, he's not gonna honor that. But if we are following him and loving him, loving others, he'll show himself strong, he'll reveal his plan for you. Paul said that he was separated from his mother's womb and God has plan A for these businessmen that may be listening here.

He's got plan A for their life and if they'll honor him, he'll show them what that plan is. Yeah, I think that's right. It's believing the promises of God's word.

This is not just words on paper, this is words from God. He promises and he's faithful to follow through on those promises. Now, I want to change gears a little bit to more of the current activities, which I think a lot of Christian business want to know is, so on a day-to-day basis, you're working your job, in your case, you're doing, I mean, you do a lot of things, but the surgeries, but you're also having to market and all those services, there are a lot of activities you're doing, maybe inventory.

On a day-to-day basis, how does your faith, how do you integrate your faith into how that work happens on a day-to-day? Well, Deuteronomy 6 says, to speak of these things as you rise up, as you go your way, as you lay down. So for me, it's a matter of getting started with the Lord in the morning. I love what one man said, his biggest job in the morning, he didn't use the word job, but his biggest task in the morning was to get his soul in a happy state before the Lord.

So, you know, communing with Christ, abiding in Christ, to me is the key to being a channel for him throughout the day, to be useful for him and to be, kind and gentle and asking for wisdom, you know, asking for wisdom and guidance, being diligent. Those are the things that come to mind when you say, you know, how do you apply, you know, principles, you know, throughout the day in the business. Everything we do, we do to Him.

I mean, He's bought us body and soul, so we serve Him all the time. If we're His child, the question is, are we serving Him well or poor? And so, we can do all these things unto the Lord. Everything we do is unto Him, and we should do it well for His glory.

Well, let me get to some specifics. I totally agree, but I know, and I can probably share part of our, I'll share the quick story. So, many, many years ago, I met David because I was working with him on operations, you know, more efficiency production.

And through that, I got the chance to actually stay with David at his house for a couple days, and I had an impression at the time, I'm going to be coming back here, you know. And the reason, I didn't know why or when, but I knew I'd be coming back. And part of that has to do with my personal story.

We've got three older boys, Matthew's 19, Luke is 16, and Ben is 14. So, we have three older boys. But after Ben was born, my wife went through very difficult health issues that brought us to a point where we made a decision at that time, a long time ago, to have a vasectomy.

And then, you know, God restored my wife's health, our family, and to the point where, you know, through prayer, through fasting, through a number of things that you're talking about, David, we knew that God desired for us to have more children. And so, that conviction was very obvious, very apparent. And so, He called you up, David, and you're like, I can squeeze you in.

And, you know, very appreciative of that. And now we have Evangeline, who's three years old. So, you know, got to see, you know, the intertwining of our stories together.

And what I got to see the practice was just how you operate different. And I've worked with over a thousand clients at this point. So, you operate very differently.

You're conspicuous about your faith. You do share the gospel with anybody who comes there before the surgery, and you want to share with them why you do what you do. Most people don't do that, but, you know, the purpose behind it.

And I know there's been fruit that's come from that. You know, obviously, you're planting seeds nonstop. So, maybe you can share some of the stories of what it's like to be that conspicuous.

I mean, for those who don't know, obviously, they're not going to probably go to this town. You literally have a billboard proclaiming the gospel right on your property. So, anybody driving by is going to get the gospel, which I think is awesome.

So, what would be some of the stories of those who've come there? Maybe they don't have a faith in Jesus. Maybe they are open to it. What has that been like to share with those folks? Well, I want to get to your question, but I just want to put a caveat out there.

The Scripture says, you know, don't put pearls before swine lest they devour you. So, I've made that mistake before in this practice and other places. So, I've learned from missionary mentors to go through a process to see who God's working in to begin to share.

So, they say, you know, begin with casual conversation, the weather, sports, you know, whatever, but then try to get to significant conversation. And if they start opening up about their difficulties or struggles, their dreams of the future, their plans, something significant, that may be God at work opening a door. And at that point, I can then put in God at some point in the conversation.

Usually, it's a story about God in my life or just an even little Bible story, a little Jesus story. And if they've already opened up and shared significant things, I just shared something significant. It doesn't feel weird to me, and it doesn't feel weird to them.

It's not like in their face. And usually, most of the time, it's just sort of ignored or no further discussion. But an occasional rare patient, God's doing the work, and they're hungry, and they're seeking, and they're full of questions.

And probably the most dramatic instance of that was a couple that came several years ago. I didn't know at the time, but they were on a spiritual journey. But he did tell me that he had started reading the Bible, and he'd gotten through like three or four of the first books of the Bible, and he was full of questions.

The procedures done on local anesthetics, and he asked questions through the entire procedure. And twice, although the wife has pointed, the field's pretty much covered up, the wife's sort of pointed away from the field and toward the patient's head. But twice, she says, we just need someone to help us find our way.

Now, that is a very, very rare circumstance. But I share that story about that couple, because there are people that God is at work, and they're looking for answers, and they're rare. But that was my first long distance Bible study, Bible reading.

And now about one out of 150 unsaved men, I would say, in the practice want to actually start reading the Scriptures. I coached them to take their families through. So, but that was one.

I could go about other stories too, but that was one instance that just was so unusual. They've become dear, dear friends. And now his son, not the reversal baby, but his son is now starting reading groups with young men his age.

So, it's neat to see the generations happening after what God did that day in the practice years ago. Wow. And that's an amazing story.

I think that's, I mean, that's the opportunity that we have anytime we're interacting with other people, is the opportunity to share, to be a witness, and your case too, because you're open to sharing. You know, transformation happened, obviously, in their family, their kids, and generationally. I know, and we can get some questions about that.

Like, that's a big part of what you believe in, is that we're teaching so that others, and maybe you can just share, like, what is your philosophy on teaching and sharing the gospel in this multiplying way? Well, I learned from missionary mentors that you want to start with the end in mind. What is the end? I used to think I would, quote, unquote, lead people to the Lord, and there'd be a conversion. And most of those folks, you know, would sit in the church pew and wait for heaven.

I mean, not quite that drastic, but I rediscovered the Great Commission about eight years ago. Jesus appeared to his disciples there at the mountain. All power and authority has been given to me.

Go, therefore, make disciples. All the nations, baptizing them in the name and teaching them to observe everything I commanded you, I'll be with you. He tells them to go make disciples.

He tells them, teach them what I commanded you, to teach them to obey everything I commanded. He just commanded them to make disciples so their disciples should be able to watch, should be able to make disciples. So the end goal is for the glory of the Lord Jesus to see disciples made who make more disciples.

So, yeah, so we want to use very simple, reproducible tools with them that they can turn around and use with others. So we try to give them the Bible as the primary source and keep going back to the Bible and exalting God's word and obedience to God's word in order to enjoy fellowship with him and growing with him. So, yeah, it's very much a household, I would say.

Biblically, it's a household approach. You see two people in the New Testament come to the Lord by themselves that we can name by name, two people. All the others come in a household.

He says, you know, go find the worthy household. So, yeah, it's really a matter of trying to see whatever the silo or the group is that the person is to see them sharing with others and obeying the Lord, loving God and others and sharing with others. So that's some of the, I would say, the philosophy of ministry that I picked up.

I think it's biblically based. Yeah, we're excited. That's what has me excited about the practice at age 66 is this aspect of the spiritual aspect.

I mean, the medical, the babies are fantastic, but it's really a spiritual aspect. If I can be coaching one or two unsaved dads to take their families to the Scripture and they're drawn to the Lord, coming close to the Lord, that transforms the practice for me. It's a whole different place.

Yeah, I think, and I hope this is encouraging for everyone to hear, is that you don't need to separate the sacred and the secular. They can be combined. Your vocation can also be your ministry in your case, and you can live it integrated.

It's not like you take off your Christian hat and now it's like, well, I'm going to be a surgeon now, and now it's all integrated into one. It sounds like you get to have a really exciting life, joyful life, being able to live out of the fullness, the abundance of walking with God through all of this. I wanted to ask you, because I just remembered the story you told me, and maybe you've forgotten it, but I remember it.

Christian business owners, they've got to make decisions nonstop. One of the decisions you had to make was about pricing, like how to set your pricing for your services, because, again, as an entrepreneur or a business owner, you can price it however you want to. Do you remember that story about your pricing and how you developed that? Yeah.

That was one of the times I got stubborn with the Lord about that verse. If you acknowledge me in all your ways, I'll break your paths. I remember distinctly around that decision, doing a moral inventory, asking God to show me sin or something I need to deal with, and I couldn't find anything.

I just said, well, Lord, you said you'd direct me, so please do. I wasn't quite as systematic in my major decision-making as I am now. This was over 20 years ago, but I was sincerely wanting what God wanted, and I did go in a season of prayer, and it was very unusual.

This is not usually how I make decisions, but I felt God was wanting to use the scripture primarily to guide the decision. So I picked the Bible up, and I began reading in the book of Joshua, and I came to a number, and I was certain that number was the professional component of the fee. He gave me a brain to figure out what my costs were, but I was asking him what the professional component of the fee should be, because I could literally charge anything in a freestanding clinic, and I checked out some Bible reference books later to see how often that number showed up, but that was the only place I could see it.

You'd write it on a check, so I was certain God had given me that number miraculously providentially. We've increased the price a few times since then, but in $05, the professional component of the fee is still the same as it was then, and that was basically God wanting people to have access to the surgery, to the ministry. You know, Lord Jesus said, let little children come unto me, so the believers that God uses, God shows them to change their decision, and unbelievers for different reasons are seeking to have the procedure.

That couple I mentioned to you, they actually sought me out because they saw the spiritual aspect of the practice. That's why they came to me. The price was one part, but they actually, years later I found out, they came because they were on a spiritual journey, and they thought that I could help them along the way, so pretty remarkable.

That's rare, but God is at work in an occasional patience. There are works of God throughout the earth, miraculous works of God, just like acts, and there've been some studies done, and there was, you know, 60 conversations to find that one worthy house or that one worthy piece, 60 conversations, so we shouldn't get discouraged if we go through 100, 150 people to see that one that God's going to send to our business, to our sphere of influence, to see that one that we can come alongside and encourage and equip to the Lord, and in those great movements of God throughout the earth, beginning in early 90s, but more frequently, more and more frequent, the point person in those movements is bivocational. God's given them the ability to earn a living, oftentimes in a small business, very efficiently, but also to make disciples.

Yeah, wow, that's an amazing story, and again, shows wrestling with the Lord, praying, seeking, to get resolution, and an encouragement for those who, maybe they've thrown a few seeds out, and they haven't seen anything yet, is knowing that you just stay consistent, and not everyone's open directly at the time, but you've seen it, and I know you're a man of statistics and numbers and analysis, and you've, you know, this many patients, this is many, you know, the numbers are what they are, and so you're willing to put in the hard work and to be available and to be, and to serve God in that way. To wrap up this interview by asking you a question that I hope will be an encouragement for those who are just maybe early on starting their journey of embracing the fact that, hey, I'm a Christian, I go to church on Sunday, but I probably should, you know, actually let my light shine. I probably should actually, maybe my employees need to know I'm a Christian, too, and maybe my customers do, and maybe that would shape how I do my work, but they haven't done it yet.

So what would you say to someone who's considering doing that? Maybe they have some fear about that. What would your encouragement be? Well, as a business owner, you have a lot of freedom, and small business owners are the most respected segment of our society across the board, so it's a wonderful platform, and it's a stewardship, and the Lord says, to whom much is given, much shall be required, and is required is to be found faithful. So we'll give an account to the Lord someday of this business.

What's my main purpose in the business? What are my goals? I think the most important aspect of the ministry is to first serve the employees. If I don't have a good testimony and I'm not serving the employees first and meeting their needs, I'm not going to be able to meet other people's needs, so that's the place to start, is with our own employees, showing them the compassion of Christ, the love of Christ. Then it can bridge, you know, it can grow out from there, but I think a transformational step in this practice was to start praying for my encounters, you know, before the actual day or the night of the procedure.

For years, I would pray the day over the night before about the appointment, but then I started praying a week before, I started praying every day, and there was a transformation. So I don't know, that would be a small thing to do, is just to start, if you have appointments, or just start praying to God about your interaction with employees or your interaction with appointments, customers. I think prayer is the foundation to see, you know, God use you in your business.

Yeah, I love that. That's great words. I always say prayer precedes progress, so I don't think you're getting very far if you haven't started with that.

And I was just doing a training on Nehemiah, and there was a four-month lag between when he first heard about the walls being broken down and before he actually asked the king to get going there, and there's a four-month period where it was just prayer, fasting, repenting, planning, just being in that state. And work is happening. Progress is happening.

It might not be progress that you can see, but it's happening, right, in the spiritual realm, and so don't ever neglect that, and don't think that you should just go it alone. You definitely want to take that journey with God. So, Davis has been very helpful, very encouraging.

Hopefully, those listening to this have been encouraged and challenged and hopefully excited about what this life, you know, their day-to-day work can really be and how it can make an eternal impact. I wanted to also let you know to stay tuned for next week. We'll be sharing another episode about how you can grow your hundredfold business, where you can integrate your faith into your business as you glorify God.

And if you need help with your business specifically, working one-on-one with me, you can go to 4thsoilventures.com and you can schedule a call there. Otherwise, David, thanks again for being on the show and sharing with us your testimony of how God's working through your business. And thank you guys for joining me on this episode, and until next time, grace be with you.